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Hidden Teaming
#16
(05-01-2021, 11:27 PM)DoctorFinkle Wrote: To everyone: the main takeaway that I want you all to get from this is that players should never feel ashamed of teaming, even if they are devoted "solo" players, as if teaming is somehow beneath them. Many players support moderators freezing and banning teamers, but act as if teaming against the teamers is somehow crossing the line. I have been playing in Splitrun Paradise a lot recently, and even in that server, I am a mostly solo player (in its traditional sense). Like in any server, there are certain players who constantly target me as well as other players relentlessly by shooting viruses at me when I am fighting others or even directly feeding my opponents. Even though I am a mostly solo player, I am never afraid to occasionally give a nearby player a party invite to put the targeters in their place. This should be a choice that players are free to make in any server, including Agf.

One of my major problems with teaming is when you are having a great battle against another solo player or players and it's back and forth and exciting. Then some teamer/helper comes along without being asked and shoots mass into one of the players involved, ending the battle before it comes to a natural conclusion. This would be rampant if teaming is allowed as it's how most teams start!

I agree with a lot of what you are saying and in a perfect world it would be implemented and work. The problem is that it is not a perfect world and any small loophole will get taken advantage of.
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#17
Yeah, I also agree with a lot of what Finky said, except the conclusionTongue
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#18
(05-01-2021, 11:26 PM)DoctorFinkle Wrote: I am not trying to the server to suit one playstyle, that's exactly what the "solo" server has been doing. I want Agf to allow ALL playstyles, and this should not affect the "solo" players very negatively. Agf has many talented players that are capable of fighting teams, so the server should be able to regulate itself just fine. What I am saying is that instead of moderators enforcing their own definition of teaming by freezing and banning, players would be able to enforce their own definitions through battling and teaming back on them when they feel that it is necessary. This is what is already going on currently. Many players are well aware of the types of teaming that are condoned by moderators, and I am sure that many players would full-on team against other teams if they could. Allowing teaming to its fullest extent would create a natural balance within the server. Instead of it being a pointless war between open teamers and hidden teamers, it would come down to which open teamers have more skill.

Finky, I don't think you are trying to suit one playstyle and I respect your opinions. You did great work in fixing the server when the anti-teaming mechanism etc. was a problem.

My personal preference would be for a fully solo server but others may want some level of teaming. There are plenty of teaming servers so having a server to cater for solo players shouldn't be a problem.
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#19
[VC] FRIEND here.

I am good friends with Finky, and I wanted to throw in my opinion here.

I agree with all of RedFox's points. As well as Demone, Light, and AgmaFan. I will just reiterate my views here.

First, I believe the solo agf server as it currently stands is perfect. I have been playing on this server and the old version for several years. Originally, it was a lot of fun. Over time, we saw the rise of Supergirl and Mindless. They abused the server for MONTHS. Teaming and powerup abuse to such an extent that I had never seen on agma before at any time of the day. It was so bad that many of us regulars quit playing agma completely. Thankfully, Sora created a new server that banned teaming and powerups, which is the current solo agf server. Now, this server has many more people and more regulars playing it. Just like RedFox stated - the only person I have ever seen complain about the server is Mindless (and now Finky), and Mindless freely admits that he attempted to destroy the previous server to get the server he wanted. He is now attempting to do the same thing with this one. Why should 2 people be allowed to destroy a server that many others love? If the server is replaced with a teaming version, it will not solve the current issues and will just create new problems, and many people, including myself, will likely quit playing it. Besides, almost every other server is a teaming server. Why are we trying to get rid of one of the only solo ones?

Second, the server is one of the most welcoming servers in agma. This is proven by the fact that the current server has grown so much and has so many more regular players in it than the previous version of the server. Many beginner players have improved drastically, not by teaming, but by solo battling better players. Many beginners are now at my level and better. Regulars, like Demone, Munchie, Light, Finky, and myself are all welcoming to new players. We know a lot of beginners usually team, but we encourage them to stay solo. We don't demonize players who team and we don't savage new players.

Third, due to the mechanics in solo agf, teams are not a big deal to manage (even without moderators). Due to the mechanics, teams can lose a lot of mass quickly if they're not careful. It is possible for an average solo player to defeat a team by themself. And you can even compare this server to the old solo agf server. The old server had MUCH more teaming and it was much harder to deal with.

Overall, I and so many other players (the silent majority) LOVE the current server and thank you Sora for creating it. It is not fair to allow the vocal minority to attempt to destroy the server.
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#20
. . . . . . . . . Tongue
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#21
its hard to stop the people doing the right things in the right place tho.....
everyone has their ways enjoy the game...even some of em is dumb
thanks for sharing ur opions Big Grin
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#22
(05-01-2021, 11:17 PM)DoctorFinkle Wrote: Most experienced players will likely stay in the “solo” server, and few players will be experienced enough to fight the teams in the regular server. 

OFC they will probably stay in the solo one and you know why?   Because they  ASKED for this server for a long time and now they are enjoying to fight in 1v1 or 1v1v1v1v1v1 and they are loving that! Fighting teams is a good challenge that we enjoy but in small doses .   As i said, it becomes frustrating when a team gets involved in your battle and a 'team' server will impose that on them. 


I also agree with what Friend's said and I can confirm that some great solos players will likely quit , so you will not be better off.
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#23
I will either be a powerful ally or enemy…. So you’ll have to show some respect or deal with the wrath.  This principle is the basis of a community ran server and what forces players to acknowledge and respect each other.  Finky hit the nails on the heads with everything he said here.  It’s amazing to see someone understand and write out the current underlying flaws of the server and see with clarity how we can resolve them.  It validates how sense and rationality will come to the same conclusions.

I think there are a lot of solo players who like battling teamers or simply believe in a community ran server who remain silent and do not bother to vocalize their opinion as well as I believe their are many teamers who remain silent on the matter as well.

As friend said,  for whatever reason it is much harder to team with the current agf mechanics.  Something to do with how the cells crowd each other or the size of the viruses.  It only takes one or two players in opposition of a team to take them out.  With three or four players in opposition of a team, the team should stand no chance.  So why bother having any kind of vote on how the server should be ran in a small window of time with only the small few who vocalize their opinion no matter their view.  Instead let the vote be in real-time with how the current player pool truly feels by allowing everyone freedom of choice.


“Solo” Players will still have the chance to play solo.  (As finky was saying he still remains mostly solo in split run paradise).  As long as the top, most skilled players respect each other and actually want to play solo, the solo party will dominate and live on within an agf server that allows teaming.  This will just give a chance for people to show their true colors.  As well as produce an environment for true organic gameplay to shine.  If there are truly so many “solo” players, the “solo” players should have nothing to fear.

The few new players that have risen in skill to be viewed as a formidable opponent still lack basic mass handling skills in my opinion.  First generation agf players have had the competitive advantage from the experience of dealing with teamers openly barreling down free’d up mass.  
An era of teaming will do these players some good and I suspect the gameplay and skill of all to evolve to much higher levels from operating under freedom of choice conditions.

Two servers will likely be two separate crap shows.  I am fairly sure it has to be just one for the full spectrum and dynamics to all come together and create the right conditions for time to be used best.

The current server kind of feels like a high-school dance where the supervisors make sure everyone is at arms length apart.  I see friends who have become scared to play with each other in fear a moderator will see it as teaming and they are at risk to be banned without warning.  It’s really sad.  When I noticed a few close friends of mine back off when we were really heating up because it started to look like teaming I almost wanted to cry.  It feels like such a loss to stop gameplay in fear to be wrongfully judged and shamed.  The cost of hesitation to consider if an action will be considered as teaming…. It is just too high.  The reason to second guess decisions needs to be lifted for real-time flow to prevail.  Hidden teaming needs to be combated with open teaming.  In-game moderation has to be put to an end.
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#24
(05-03-2021, 12:15 AM)Mindless Wrote: I will either be a powerful ally or enemy…. So you’ll have to show some respect or deal with the wrath. 

This threat in the first line of your post is exactly why moderation is required- so you can't ruin the server for everyone again! It's now clear why you want to get rid of them.
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#25
I know I've said I don't join forums. This conversation has just been on my mind a lot. 

After following quite a few threads about moderation and teaming... I decided to state my thoughts. I PRAY that what I say does not make some users target me into oblivion. I will surely move onto another io game or a different server in Agma. Which I really don't want to do.

Anyways, I'm known to almost all the regulars as the new kid on the block. I've had great battles with every one of you. As someone who came in way after this 'AGF' period I can give my thoughts without nostalgia pulling me back into it's grips.

Solo server or teaming server, I am perfectly fine with both. The only thing I want is fairness.
#1 I personally don't find it fair that teams are able to dominate when there aren't other way more skilled soloist players online.
#2 I absolutely despise when fallen teams are able to get right back to first through virus farming. All they do is hog the mass from everyone else.
These are my main problems that I face as a soloist player.

Yes I have targeted teams and helped other soloist get to first so that I can continue having a good time. Yes I have also been too aggressive to newer players (gameplay wise) I am working on becoming a better player. I'm sorry if you've been affected from my style of playing.

Now for the fun topic that I wish I could skip over. MODERATION!
In my personal experience I have not gone into some battles because I was scared that a Mod would see me and think that I was teaming. My style is very risky... so some splits might seem like split running. I also tend to miss splits and accidentally give my mass to someone when they are on top of another user. This in turn has made people accuse me of teaming. All in all I'm still working on my gameplay so I tend to mess up a lot.

I think there needs to be chat moderation, but not game moderation. I say this because if you made the server agreeable to any play style but made it fair.... I can see it working out well for everyone.

Well, these are my thoughts and I hope no one thinks ill of me afterwards. I really do love this game and I really want to stick with it to become one of the best. (Sorry if it sounds egotistical.) I'm looking forward to whatever choice that will be made. Solo only or both.

EDIT: After re-reading what I wrote... some parts seem irrelevant. I guess this post is just how a newer player like myself feels. Hope that I didn't impede on the actual issue.

Stay safe everyone.
-Dace
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#26
I agree teams can easily take over in that server even when there are skilled soloist… I did have the experience of letting an experienced solo to battle the team but after a while he was tired of it

I don't think you should worry in going into battles because the battles that solos fight all together are not even looked at .... basically it's just chaos lol

Having said that it's very clear when someone teams and it not just one split (although for some it's obvious that they want to team when they do that...) it's a pattern of people hanging together and giving several times some mass or agreeing with www that it will be so... signalling the other, or like giving one time mass and staying beside the person not expecting them to eat you in expectation of teaming/friendship dance (in place cirling)/giving www

Even in the chaos of solo players you can see easily the teamers since they obviously help each other and It's a matter of attitude... the person is expecting this split in order to do the next move, they rely on each other etc, whether they are in that battle or not

On my part I was not going into these chaos battle and I try not to attack someone that is already in battle with another because solo is solo, but it's not the opinion of other people and I respect that. I might adventure and do some more and more just to understand the other point of view but it might be your good conscience that talks to you more than being scared of the mods. As to people accusing you of teaming well... we know very well that some people accuse everybody of teaming just to make it normal to be teaming in order to get a teaming server or just to annoy them
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#27
Lightbulb 
It is really clear who is talking out of fear vs who is talking with sense.

It is also clear Light means well but is too clouded to see how me, Finky, and Dace all fear being frozen or even banned while solo for good reason.  I have been frozen solo over 10+ times already.  Every time is extremely damaging to both parties involved and makes it so friends are so afraid to play with each other we just stop all together.  I have even been banned without warning.  So now I don't fear just getting frozen while solo but I fear getting banned while solo.  So much that I don't look forward to seeing my friends anymore because I am too worried I will just get banned and it will ruin my day, week, or month(s).

Most of the times I was frozen solo are times I was playing at my best.  I take lots of measures in my daily life to keep clean, running consciousness so I can perform at peak performance day in and day out.  Doing this so I can entertain others as well as have fun myself.  I look forward most to the moments the server really heats up and it may happen once or twice within a weeks time.  When it finally happens now, I've been frozen too many times in these moments and everything just stops.  I get nervous on my end and I see my opponents and/or comrades get nervous too.  Everything I was looking forward to comes to a complete loss.

But also what has to stop is all the hidden teaming that is being done and being gotten away with.  Players are openly targeting each other.  It only takes a moment to target a player and eliminate all their mass.  When skilled players are doing this, it's really easy to make it look like everyone in the party is "solo" when in all truth players are consistently and repeatedly making sure a certain players comes out on top and they make sure to keep it that way for extended periods of time..  Nothing is fair about this.  It's teaming and is the style that is currently controlling the server.
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#28
(05-04-2021, 01:00 PM)Mindless Wrote: It is really clear who is talking out of fear vs who is talking with sense.

It is also clear Light means well but is too clouded to see how me, Finky, and Dace all fear being frozen or even banned while solo for good reason.  I have been frozen solo over 10+ times already.  Every time is extremely damaging to both parties involved and makes it so friends are so afraid to play with each other we just stop all together.  I have even been banned without warning.  So now I don't fear just getting frozen while solo but I fear getting banned while solo.  So much that I don't look forward to seeing my friends anymore because I am too worried I will just get banned and it will ruin my day, week, or month(s).

Most of the times I was frozen solo are times I was playing at my best.  I take lots of measures in my daily life to keep clean, running consciousness so I can perform at peak performance day in and day out.  Doing this so I can entertain others as well as have fun myself.  I look forward most to the moments the server really heats up and it may happen once or twice within a weeks time.  When it finally happens now, I've been frozen too many times in these moments and everything just stops.  I get nervous on my end and I see my opponents and/or comrades get nervous too.  Everything I was looking forward to comes to a complete loss.

But also what has to stop is all the hidden teaming that is being done and being gotten away with.  Players are openly targeting each other.  It only takes a moment to target a player and eliminate all their mass.  When skilled players are doing this, it's really easy to make it look like everyone in the party is "solo" when in all truth players are consistently and repeatedly making sure a certain players comes out on top and they make sure to keep it that way for extended periods of time..  Nothing is fair about this.  It's teaming and is the style that is currently controlling the server.
I recently got banned for eight days for supposedly "teaming" in agf. I don't really enjoy playing on there anymore, because there's just too much risk when mods are around. Or people who just hate you playing there so they report you to a mod and you get in trouble for doing nothing wrong. Add me to your list of people who agrees with mod power being used for inappropriate reasons against other players.

I've been banned many times on my original account, and it got too the point where my account is now banned. So I had to start a new account, because it's useless to argue to Sora about the unfairness over what happened to me. I'm sure many other people can agree that moderators are being very annoying and mean, as they do exactly what they tell you not to do. I am awaiting the agf teams server because this stuff is getting out of hand. But instead of Sora fixing the problem, he just makes another server. People will still secret team on solo agf, even though there's a teams agf server out. But now whenever people ask Sora about why people are teaming in agf solo, he'll just say to go over to agf teams.

So basically the future of agf is getting darker, if not even worse than it was before. Agf teams will be awful because people will have 10 people in each party all savaging anyone who isn't their friend. So then people will get mad and want to switch to agf solo, but then people are teaming there. You can see where this is going.
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#29
(05-04-2021, 01:00 PM)Mindless Wrote: It is really clear who is talking out of fear vs who is talking with sense.

It is also clear Light means well but is too clouded to see how me, Finky, and Dace all fear being frozen or even banned while solo for good reason.  I have been frozen solo over 10+ times already.  Every time is extremely damaging to both parties involved and makes it so friends are so afraid to play with each other we just stop all together.  I have even been banned without warning.  So now I don't fear just getting frozen while solo but I fear getting banned while solo.  So much that I don't look forward to seeing my friends anymore because I am too worried I will just get banned and it will ruin my day, week, or month(s).

Why would Finky fear getting frozen when he is a mod?

You (Mindless) fear getting frozen because you actually team. It's not that your actions look similar to teaming, it's that you actually DO team and have done so for years (you destroyed the old server when you, Supergirl, and Samira would team all day every day and spam powerups).

It seems that the solution would be for the mods to have a less heavy handed approach on the game and to simply freeze players less and give them the benefit of the doubt. Pretending that creating a brand new server that allows teaming will be the solution is deceptive and simply absurd.
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#30
(05-04-2021, 01:00 PM)Mindless Wrote: I get nervous on my end and I see my opponents and/or comrades get nervous too. 

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You made my day. Still can’t stop laughing about this highlight of your fairytale. Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

It’s just so incredibly funny when I try to image two players being afraid to even move because evil evil demone is around Big Grin ahahah ahahah whooooo who is supposed to believe this????? Big Grin
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